![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Q/O fandom babbling - Letters Universe
[This is a rant long in the writing, but I've reached the point at which I'm just not going to tweak it anymore. This is a journal in the daily-or-not-quite scrawlings sense, dashitall, not a journal in the publication sense. General caveats - this is my humble opinion, I'm a slavering Qui-Gon devotee, and... well, I guess that's it. On to the Q/O fandom heresy.]
Hello, my name is Kivrin, and I don't like the Letters universe.
That's a bit of a generalization - I did enjoy the original Letters: An Epistolary Romance for a variety of reasons, including the form and the original characters. I especially liked the development of Jess Lashar from a thorn in Obi-Wan's professional flesh to a good friend (and eventual lover, in the Foursome subuniverse.) What I don't like is the Q/O relationship and the way Obi-Wan treats his bondmate. The things I dislike have only intensified as the series has progressed.
A whole lot of very bad things happen to the boys in this universe. Not surprising; fanfic of all fandoms tends to be bursting at the seams with painful events, which in my hurt/comfortaholic mind is no bad thing. The Bad Thing isn't even that Obi-Wan is the usual hurtee and Qui-Gon the usual comforter. That irks me, but again, it's par for the course - in many slashdoms, the smaller partner seems to assume a disproportionate amount of the hurtee duties. Obi-Wan gets hurt more than Qui-Gon, Blair gets hurt more than Jim, Paris gets hurt more than Chakotay... the list goes on.
No, the thing that gets my proverbial knickers in a twist and leads to me stalking around my apartment muttering is Obi-Wan's total self-absorbtion whenever anything happens to him as well as on those occasions when Qui-Gon's in trouble. Not to mentions the way that Qui-Gon feeds into it with an Obi-fixation that approaches the clinically unbalanced.
The most frustrating thing is that the problem is not exactly one of poor writing or poor character work, as the same events could form part of an intensely satisfying character arc for Qui-Gon. The problem, for me, is that the writers don't seem to see it that way.
Letters Obi-Wan complains on many occasions that Letters Qui-Gon fails to alter old habits of treating him (Obi-Wan) like a subordinate rather than a full-fledged Jedi. This may be - I don't especially see it, but that's hardly conclusive. What I do see Qui-Gon doing is indulging what could be another old habit from Obi-Wan's apprenticeship, one that threatens to be just as damaging to their relationship and to himself. He's unwilling to show weakness or negative emotion; he fails to trust Obi-Wan with his feelings. Many, many times, when Obi-Wan expresses concern over something Qui-Gon has suffered, Qui-Gon immediately turns the conversation back to focus on Obi-Wan.
In Interlude 19 of An Epistolary Romance, for example, the pair discovers that a Sith has forced a bond with Qui-Gon's mind. Obi-Wan severs it, freeing Qui-Gon of the dark taint but causing terrible pain that sends Qui-Gon into shock. Several hours later, he wakes up in Obi-Wan's arms, and they have this telepathic exchange (telepathy indicated by []):
{Obi-Wan said}[How are you?]
[I feel like I should feel worse than I do.]
He smiled. [Then recovery is well underway.]
[And you? How are you doing?]
[As well as can be expected.] He sent a mental image of a shrug along
the bond, not wanting to move and disturb Ani again.
[I had the easy part, I only had to endure. You had to inflict.]
Qui-Gon is unwilling to acknowledge or discuss the pain that he has suffered, preferring to focus on Obi-Wan's suffering. He's being a Good Parent, focusing on his 'child's' needs and trying to protect the 'child' from worry. (Whether or not that's feasible or in fact beneficial to a child is a can of worms I'm going to walk right past here.) A Good Parent, but not a very good bondmate. Instead of treating Obi-Wan as a functional adult, he's continuing to treat him as an apprentice who needs to be guided and protected and to see Qui-Gon strong.
This tendency of Qui-Gon's becomes more obvious as the series wears on, and Obi-Wan (perhaps unconsciously) plays into it. It becomes much more striking after the infamous 'suicide attempt' in Foursome 7.
Qui-Gon is injured while doing a training exercise with Anakin, whose unusual ability causes an uncontrolled buildup of Force-energy. Qui-Gon tries to channel it, but the resulting backlash leaves him unconscious and blind - both physically and to the Force.
Following the accident, Qui-Gon feels that, without his Forcesense, he has nothing to offer his bondmate(s) and will eventually drag everyone around him into a black pit of oppression. That his worth as a person is totally based on his being strong and in-charge, and that no one will be able to tolerate him as a dependent. In that episode, I found the precise order of events hugely significant. Qui-Gon feels dismal about his future as a Force-blind person whose only useful skills are largely Force-dependent, wonders how long his bondmates can carry his weight without buckling under it, and thinks that perhaps it might be better for all concerned if he just died before it got that point. Obi-Wan picks up that thought, yells at Qui-Gon about it, and runs from the room. And at that moment, Qui-Gon lets himself fall into the Forceless void in his mind because (I think) Obi-Wan's flight seems to Qui to confirm the fear that no one, not even his bondmate, can handle him being less that strong and less than content. It is Qui-Gon's fear of being a burden that precipitates what has been called a 'suicide attempt' in discussions of the story, but what I see as a more passive giving-up.
In the ForceAndSightBlind!Qui-Gon arc, it's striking that the big issues for the other characters are not how-can-we-help-Qui-Gon or even God-this-is-so-scary-he's-never-been-needy-before-whaddowedo?, but how-could-he-hurt-us-like-this? Rilka, the only non-Jedi character, even guilt-trips him about being sad over losing an ability that she's never had. No-one ever tries to find out what Qui-Gon was thinking at the time of the 'suicide attempt,' or seems to consider the fact that depression might be a symptom of his injuries. His despair appears as an injury to Obi-Wan and Rilka and Jess, not as part of his own at-that-moment fragile physical and mental health.
Another major event in this universe is the infamous Collar Incident, found in War Chronicles: Third Salvo. After a mission with young Anakin in which Obi-Wan was injured and Qui-Gon took control of getting the three of them out, Obi-Wan feels that Qui-Gon is reverting to old master-apprentice habits and treating him (Obi-Wan) like an inferior - an incompetent inferior - and always tries to control everything around him. No instances other than the mission are shown, only a paragraph from Obi-Wan's diary in which he states that he feels belittled and has tried to talk to Qui-Gon about it but doesn't seem to be getting through.
Now, Qui-fanatic that I am, I can still admit that it's perfectly possible that Qui-Gon could fall into old habits of taking charge of Obi-Wan. But I see this episode as being connected to the burden issue - Qui-Gon has the habit of not sharing things that are bothering him, of keeping his own worries and concerns from Obi-Wan, as well as the habit of taking the lead in any joint missions.
On at least one occasion, Obi-Wan does call Qui-Gon on keeping his emotions bottled up, but the result is far from salutary to their relationship. When the Rebellion Missives arc begins, Qui-Gon has just awakened from a six-year coma caused by an encounter with a dark power which outright killed every other Jedi who attempted to oppose it. This, understandably, leads to Issues for every major character. In Rebellion Missives 3, Obi-Wan comes to join Qui-Gon while he is meditating and encourages him to express his negative emotions about the coma situation:
"And you think I should rant. Or scream." {Qui-Gon said.}
"I think you have a lot of built up frustration and I'd rather you took it out on innocent walls that letting it eat away at you, or losing you to your anger in a battle."
< snip >
"I feel cheated... I'll never know exactly what I lost."
"No, you can't just like I'll never know what it was like to make love to you as a padawan."
"You put it that way and it makes me look like I'm being unreasonable. Wanting too much."
Obi-Wan held up his hands and mimed closing his mouth.
Qui-Gon sighed and stopped pacing. "Maybe I am. But-"
"But it is how you feel. Cheated. You are far from being the only one."
"I know." He knelt down in front of Obi-Wan and reached for his hands. "It was harder for you."
Aaaaand he's off on the familar path of turning attention away from any possible struggle he has and onto Obi-Wan's suffering. But wait, a few lines later, it gets worse.
"I want [that lost time] back." The softly spoken words were out before [Qui-Gon] really thought about them.
"No you don't. If you did you would have. You don't want it. You wanted it all to go away."
"I didn't - not like that."
"Obi-Wan pulled away his hands and gave him a cold look. "Yes, you did. It was easier to sleep and let someone else handle it. Admit it."
The accusation hurt. "You think I ran away? That I chose not to wake up?"
"I think that you are pitying yourself, not angry. You want sympathy. You missed all the pain and you're angry about it. That's just insane."
Okay, what happened to 'you've got a lot of anger that needs to be released?' I feel like Obi-Wan lured Qui-Gon into being honest about his feelings, and then slammed him for it. And damn but that makes me mad. It's so fucking cruel. And Qui-Gon takes such care of him and loves him so much and just keeps getting stomped... it's Oscar and Bosie in Wilde all over again. (I can't say anything about the actual historical personages, but in the movie... poor Stephen Fry is screwed over by pretty but mean and selfish Jude Law.)
Moving on a little further...
[I am Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight, Commander of the Jedi Fleet, and lifemate to Master Qui-Gon Jinn. That is enough of a burden and miracle making for any person in one lifetime.]
[And the last I am sure is more of a burden than the first two combined.] He gently pulled Obi-Wan closer to him. [And you think I am adding to it?]
[No, but I think your role in this coming confrontation with the Emperor is different from the one laid out for me.] The lean body in his arms stay tense, unyielding. [What you see as something that needs to be fixed I see as a situation out of balance. One
that needs to be realigned.]
[Is that so different?]
[I refuse to argue semantics with you.]
[I don't want to argue with you at all. I'm sorry if I-]
[Then don't ever refer to yourself as a burden again. I find it abhorrent.]
He grimaced. Bad choice of words. [All right. I only meant that you had to take care of me for so long...]
[Apparently neither of us is ready for this conversation. Shall we move on to something else?] Still unbending, Obi-Wan looked at him patiently.
Oh-fucking-kay. Here Obi-Wan realizes what I figured out in about paragraph two -- he's in no shape to facilitate Qui-Gon's ranting -- but he shifts some of the blame onto Qui-Gon. Who accepts it and tries his darndest to do what Obi-Wan wants, just as he did when Obi-Wan ambled in and said, 'Hey! I think you should rant!' In sum, Obi-Wan demands that Qui-Gon do what he (OW) is patently incapable of doing -- turn his emotions on and off like a faucet. Now be angry. No, you can't be angry. Don't even think about being angry until I say it's time.
I see this conversation (an aborted rant by Qui-Gon turning into a harangue/rant by Obi-Wan) as reinforcing that fear which precipitated Qui-Gon's near-death in Foursome. Obi-Wan offers to listen to Qui-Gon's feelings, but it quickly becomes clear that Obi-Wan can't handle Qui-Gon needy. He needs Jinn to straighten up and fly right to help him. Worst of all, by rejecting Qui-Gon's appropriation of the description 'burden' to himself, Obi-Wan effectively shuts the door to Qui's being able to discuss the fear of burdensome-ness with him. Qui-Gon backs off so fast he doesn't even point out that Obi-Wan had listed being his lifemate as one of several 'burdens.' The bad word choice that Obi-Wan doesn't like was OBI-WAN's first.
By this point, my blood pressure is rising by leaps and bounds. Obnoxious little grumble grumble hurt my Master Qui-Gon grumble grumble castrate you with a spork grumble grumble why doesn't he dump your sorry ass grumble soul-bond grumble curse curse.
There hasn't been any addition to the chronicles of the Letters universe for some time, and perhaps there won't be, but from my perhaps unique perspective it is not encouraging that the latest offering was an account of Obi-Wan's thoughts and feelings during the coma period. Still no hope for any progress on, or even overt acknowledgement of, Qui-Gon's burden issues and the problems that poses for the relationship.
In the words of Robertson Davies... And that, Headmaster, is all I have to tell you.
Hello, my name is Kivrin, and I don't like the Letters universe.
That's a bit of a generalization - I did enjoy the original Letters: An Epistolary Romance for a variety of reasons, including the form and the original characters. I especially liked the development of Jess Lashar from a thorn in Obi-Wan's professional flesh to a good friend (and eventual lover, in the Foursome subuniverse.) What I don't like is the Q/O relationship and the way Obi-Wan treats his bondmate. The things I dislike have only intensified as the series has progressed.
A whole lot of very bad things happen to the boys in this universe. Not surprising; fanfic of all fandoms tends to be bursting at the seams with painful events, which in my hurt/comfortaholic mind is no bad thing. The Bad Thing isn't even that Obi-Wan is the usual hurtee and Qui-Gon the usual comforter. That irks me, but again, it's par for the course - in many slashdoms, the smaller partner seems to assume a disproportionate amount of the hurtee duties. Obi-Wan gets hurt more than Qui-Gon, Blair gets hurt more than Jim, Paris gets hurt more than Chakotay... the list goes on.
No, the thing that gets my proverbial knickers in a twist and leads to me stalking around my apartment muttering is Obi-Wan's total self-absorbtion whenever anything happens to him as well as on those occasions when Qui-Gon's in trouble. Not to mentions the way that Qui-Gon feeds into it with an Obi-fixation that approaches the clinically unbalanced.
The most frustrating thing is that the problem is not exactly one of poor writing or poor character work, as the same events could form part of an intensely satisfying character arc for Qui-Gon. The problem, for me, is that the writers don't seem to see it that way.
Letters Obi-Wan complains on many occasions that Letters Qui-Gon fails to alter old habits of treating him (Obi-Wan) like a subordinate rather than a full-fledged Jedi. This may be - I don't especially see it, but that's hardly conclusive. What I do see Qui-Gon doing is indulging what could be another old habit from Obi-Wan's apprenticeship, one that threatens to be just as damaging to their relationship and to himself. He's unwilling to show weakness or negative emotion; he fails to trust Obi-Wan with his feelings. Many, many times, when Obi-Wan expresses concern over something Qui-Gon has suffered, Qui-Gon immediately turns the conversation back to focus on Obi-Wan.
In Interlude 19 of An Epistolary Romance, for example, the pair discovers that a Sith has forced a bond with Qui-Gon's mind. Obi-Wan severs it, freeing Qui-Gon of the dark taint but causing terrible pain that sends Qui-Gon into shock. Several hours later, he wakes up in Obi-Wan's arms, and they have this telepathic exchange (telepathy indicated by []):
{Obi-Wan said}[How are you?]
[I feel like I should feel worse than I do.]
He smiled. [Then recovery is well underway.]
[And you? How are you doing?]
[As well as can be expected.] He sent a mental image of a shrug along
the bond, not wanting to move and disturb Ani again.
[I had the easy part, I only had to endure. You had to inflict.]
Qui-Gon is unwilling to acknowledge or discuss the pain that he has suffered, preferring to focus on Obi-Wan's suffering. He's being a Good Parent, focusing on his 'child's' needs and trying to protect the 'child' from worry. (Whether or not that's feasible or in fact beneficial to a child is a can of worms I'm going to walk right past here.) A Good Parent, but not a very good bondmate. Instead of treating Obi-Wan as a functional adult, he's continuing to treat him as an apprentice who needs to be guided and protected and to see Qui-Gon strong.
This tendency of Qui-Gon's becomes more obvious as the series wears on, and Obi-Wan (perhaps unconsciously) plays into it. It becomes much more striking after the infamous 'suicide attempt' in Foursome 7.
Qui-Gon is injured while doing a training exercise with Anakin, whose unusual ability causes an uncontrolled buildup of Force-energy. Qui-Gon tries to channel it, but the resulting backlash leaves him unconscious and blind - both physically and to the Force.
Following the accident, Qui-Gon feels that, without his Forcesense, he has nothing to offer his bondmate(s) and will eventually drag everyone around him into a black pit of oppression. That his worth as a person is totally based on his being strong and in-charge, and that no one will be able to tolerate him as a dependent. In that episode, I found the precise order of events hugely significant. Qui-Gon feels dismal about his future as a Force-blind person whose only useful skills are largely Force-dependent, wonders how long his bondmates can carry his weight without buckling under it, and thinks that perhaps it might be better for all concerned if he just died before it got that point. Obi-Wan picks up that thought, yells at Qui-Gon about it, and runs from the room. And at that moment, Qui-Gon lets himself fall into the Forceless void in his mind because (I think) Obi-Wan's flight seems to Qui to confirm the fear that no one, not even his bondmate, can handle him being less that strong and less than content. It is Qui-Gon's fear of being a burden that precipitates what has been called a 'suicide attempt' in discussions of the story, but what I see as a more passive giving-up.
In the ForceAndSightBlind!Qui-Gon arc, it's striking that the big issues for the other characters are not how-can-we-help-Qui-Gon or even God-this-is-so-scary-he's-never-been-needy-before-whaddowedo?, but how-could-he-hurt-us-like-this? Rilka, the only non-Jedi character, even guilt-trips him about being sad over losing an ability that she's never had. No-one ever tries to find out what Qui-Gon was thinking at the time of the 'suicide attempt,' or seems to consider the fact that depression might be a symptom of his injuries. His despair appears as an injury to Obi-Wan and Rilka and Jess, not as part of his own at-that-moment fragile physical and mental health.
Another major event in this universe is the infamous Collar Incident, found in War Chronicles: Third Salvo. After a mission with young Anakin in which Obi-Wan was injured and Qui-Gon took control of getting the three of them out, Obi-Wan feels that Qui-Gon is reverting to old master-apprentice habits and treating him (Obi-Wan) like an inferior - an incompetent inferior - and always tries to control everything around him. No instances other than the mission are shown, only a paragraph from Obi-Wan's diary in which he states that he feels belittled and has tried to talk to Qui-Gon about it but doesn't seem to be getting through.
Now, Qui-fanatic that I am, I can still admit that it's perfectly possible that Qui-Gon could fall into old habits of taking charge of Obi-Wan. But I see this episode as being connected to the burden issue - Qui-Gon has the habit of not sharing things that are bothering him, of keeping his own worries and concerns from Obi-Wan, as well as the habit of taking the lead in any joint missions.
On at least one occasion, Obi-Wan does call Qui-Gon on keeping his emotions bottled up, but the result is far from salutary to their relationship. When the Rebellion Missives arc begins, Qui-Gon has just awakened from a six-year coma caused by an encounter with a dark power which outright killed every other Jedi who attempted to oppose it. This, understandably, leads to Issues for every major character. In Rebellion Missives 3, Obi-Wan comes to join Qui-Gon while he is meditating and encourages him to express his negative emotions about the coma situation:
"And you think I should rant. Or scream." {Qui-Gon said.}
"I think you have a lot of built up frustration and I'd rather you took it out on innocent walls that letting it eat away at you, or losing you to your anger in a battle."
< snip >
"I feel cheated... I'll never know exactly what I lost."
"No, you can't just like I'll never know what it was like to make love to you as a padawan."
"You put it that way and it makes me look like I'm being unreasonable. Wanting too much."
Obi-Wan held up his hands and mimed closing his mouth.
Qui-Gon sighed and stopped pacing. "Maybe I am. But-"
"But it is how you feel. Cheated. You are far from being the only one."
"I know." He knelt down in front of Obi-Wan and reached for his hands. "It was harder for you."
Aaaaand he's off on the familar path of turning attention away from any possible struggle he has and onto Obi-Wan's suffering. But wait, a few lines later, it gets worse.
"I want [that lost time] back." The softly spoken words were out before [Qui-Gon] really thought about them.
"No you don't. If you did you would have. You don't want it. You wanted it all to go away."
"I didn't - not like that."
"Obi-Wan pulled away his hands and gave him a cold look. "Yes, you did. It was easier to sleep and let someone else handle it. Admit it."
The accusation hurt. "You think I ran away? That I chose not to wake up?"
"I think that you are pitying yourself, not angry. You want sympathy. You missed all the pain and you're angry about it. That's just insane."
Okay, what happened to 'you've got a lot of anger that needs to be released?' I feel like Obi-Wan lured Qui-Gon into being honest about his feelings, and then slammed him for it. And damn but that makes me mad. It's so fucking cruel. And Qui-Gon takes such care of him and loves him so much and just keeps getting stomped... it's Oscar and Bosie in Wilde all over again. (I can't say anything about the actual historical personages, but in the movie... poor Stephen Fry is screwed over by pretty but mean and selfish Jude Law.)
Moving on a little further...
[I am Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight, Commander of the Jedi Fleet, and lifemate to Master Qui-Gon Jinn. That is enough of a burden and miracle making for any person in one lifetime.]
[And the last I am sure is more of a burden than the first two combined.] He gently pulled Obi-Wan closer to him. [And you think I am adding to it?]
[No, but I think your role in this coming confrontation with the Emperor is different from the one laid out for me.] The lean body in his arms stay tense, unyielding. [What you see as something that needs to be fixed I see as a situation out of balance. One
that needs to be realigned.]
[Is that so different?]
[I refuse to argue semantics with you.]
[I don't want to argue with you at all. I'm sorry if I-]
[Then don't ever refer to yourself as a burden again. I find it abhorrent.]
He grimaced. Bad choice of words. [All right. I only meant that you had to take care of me for so long...]
[Apparently neither of us is ready for this conversation. Shall we move on to something else?] Still unbending, Obi-Wan looked at him patiently.
Oh-fucking-kay. Here Obi-Wan realizes what I figured out in about paragraph two -- he's in no shape to facilitate Qui-Gon's ranting -- but he shifts some of the blame onto Qui-Gon. Who accepts it and tries his darndest to do what Obi-Wan wants, just as he did when Obi-Wan ambled in and said, 'Hey! I think you should rant!' In sum, Obi-Wan demands that Qui-Gon do what he (OW) is patently incapable of doing -- turn his emotions on and off like a faucet. Now be angry. No, you can't be angry. Don't even think about being angry until I say it's time.
I see this conversation (an aborted rant by Qui-Gon turning into a harangue/rant by Obi-Wan) as reinforcing that fear which precipitated Qui-Gon's near-death in Foursome. Obi-Wan offers to listen to Qui-Gon's feelings, but it quickly becomes clear that Obi-Wan can't handle Qui-Gon needy. He needs Jinn to straighten up and fly right to help him. Worst of all, by rejecting Qui-Gon's appropriation of the description 'burden' to himself, Obi-Wan effectively shuts the door to Qui's being able to discuss the fear of burdensome-ness with him. Qui-Gon backs off so fast he doesn't even point out that Obi-Wan had listed being his lifemate as one of several 'burdens.' The bad word choice that Obi-Wan doesn't like was OBI-WAN's first.
By this point, my blood pressure is rising by leaps and bounds. Obnoxious little grumble grumble hurt my Master Qui-Gon grumble grumble castrate you with a spork grumble grumble why doesn't he dump your sorry ass grumble soul-bond grumble curse curse.
There hasn't been any addition to the chronicles of the Letters universe for some time, and perhaps there won't be, but from my perhaps unique perspective it is not encouraging that the latest offering was an account of Obi-Wan's thoughts and feelings during the coma period. Still no hope for any progress on, or even overt acknowledgement of, Qui-Gon's burden issues and the problems that poses for the relationship.
In the words of Robertson Davies... And that, Headmaster, is all I have to tell you.
My couple of peanuts
The Obi-Centric universe is irritating on many levels, most of which you've described far better in your "rant" than I could. I summed it up in my own head as the "OH MY GOD, FORCE NO! OBI-WAN BENT AN EYELASH!!! WHAT SHALL WE DO TO COMFORT HIM NOW?" syndrome. Not bad writing, just well, kind of irritating after a long read.
I am likely entirely alone in that I did NOT like the original characters. Rilka, once she'd sent the letter that Obi wrote but didn't himself intend to send to Qui, frankly - she'd served her purpose. Jess is more interesting, I admit, but again - not really integral. I once took Rilka through the "Official Mary Sue Litmus Test" and frankly - she scored a whole big fat lot of points. Like, all of them, except I think, for being able to sing well. But anyway, I've been told over and over that this is NOT the case, especially Rilka isn't a MS, so the elephant is really a cucumber. Whatever. *G*.
They were ignorable, however (except in the Foursome subuniverse, which I never bought into).
What isn't ignorable is the pervasive Obi-Wan and Everybody Else Attitude of "Yeh, Qui-you took a blaster shot directly to the head. That's sad. Now, about my (Obi's) hang nail..."
Now, mind, the writing here is GOOD - but it would have been even better with intense editing from a less Obi-centered pair of eyes.
Re: My couple of peanuts
First, LOL! Second, I can totally see your point... the more so since Rilka did later croak and cause Mass Angst to the Canon Characters. I think in the original arc I liked having Rilka and Jess there because it sort of balanced the intense inward focus of the soul-bonded pair.
The elephant is really a cucumber. Am I just way too easily amused that I'm still laughing at that?
Silly question
Re: Silly question
Re: Silly question
this is interesting...
To answer [Unknown site tag]'s question for myself, I kept reading Letters for a long time hoping for the original Letters spark. I'd skim past telepathic cats and naps and Yoda and cream and sunbeams and babies to get to the juicy Q/O bits. But, IMHO, the *spark* never came back. I stopped somewhere in Rebellion Missives - I didn't get to the part where Rill bit it.
I liked Rill, actually, but there's no rhyme or reason to why I like or hate an OC.
It's weird, because I liked Lori's Thoughts universe stories and I adore Wolfling's Nightrunner stories (OK, maybe not the MPREG one, but that's just me (*g*).
What's interesting is that you've put up a post about it. I doubt you do an in-depth analysis about *every* story you have a problem with.
I think that's because -- like it or not like it -- you can't *ignore* Letters. I mean, it's just so *huge* It must be several novels long by now, and writing anything on that scale is a monumental achievment, which will have its supporters and detractors. Consider that it was written for fun and not for publication or profit. *Boggle* I only wish I had 1/10 of the discipline it took to put Letters together.
uhhh
Re: this is interesting...
Quite true. I'll make little private blurts, but I've never put anything together into an even slightly coherent public post. I think Letters occasioned this because I thought/think about it a lot more than about other stories that didn't hit me quite right. As you say, it's impossible to ignore, and also, it was confusing to me that I was simultaneously so engrossed and so... put off. I started analyzing to try and figure out why that was.
I think it boils down to the fact that it is such an impressive feat, and so well done in many ways, that I'd really, really like to like it, but I don't. So it's not as simple as 'I'm a Qui-chick and this is an Obi-centric story' or 'this isn't written a way I like' - the characters do live for me, and I'm mad at the ones I don't feel sorry for. So in a way it's a good bad thing, and a bad thing I haven't often encountered in fic. Thus, I got the strange itch to play analysis games with it.
no subject
Probably not.
There is a number of personal politics issues that I'm not going to air in public, and co-writing is an intensely personal process - with two people on opposite sides of the country. That explain some of the unbalanced factor that came about as the story progressed.
I've never gotten why Letters got the press that it did, to answer a comment earlier up in the thread. A lot of it, I suspect was the timing and the length at which it ran. 90 days of the first six months of the fandom makes an impression.
If you'd like I can try and take your commentary point by point or a summary and I can give you the whys and wherefores of what was going through my head when Wolf and I cowrote it (I won't speak for her on the issue {grin)). Essentially though, the relationship of Qui and Obi never progressed because Qui never changed from day one and the further the story warped the more obvious that became until the story couldn't support it any more.
Wolfling has really moved on from writing tpm and is full tilt into Angel and BTVS. I started writing the solo coma years stories because I write Obi and didn't feel comfortable at the time trying to take on the Qui POV. I also felt there were events in that time that I *could* cover and not mess with the Missives and onward timeline since Wolf and I were at that point still trying to cowrite on several other stories are were going to try and get back to Letters.
I want to finish the story. I want to do the next plot arc which was Qui going off on his own (essentially) to get a grip, work through his issues and then sit Obi down to tell him to really get over this parent trip he seems to be on. To deal with the Obi clone who wouldn't have the background and history and reactions of Letters Obi to warp them.
Anyway, if you'd like a more full spiel I can give it - or not. The story really should stand on its own and not because I 'splained away the bits.
And yes, the cats and Rill and berries and other stuff got overused. Some of it I cringe at - then again, it's on the order of 460,000 words. You use everything when that much gets written.
Finally - thank you. It's been quite cool to get some heavy duty real critique.
no subject
Well, it makes me feel like I'm not crazy, which is a nice thing. :)
If you'd like I can try and take your commentary point by point or a summary and I can give you the whys and wherefores of what was going through my head when Wolf and I cowrote it.
That's a very kind and generous offer. If and when you have a chance, I'd be interested in whatever you feel like sharing about the Force-blind episode in Foursome and the ranting/not ranting in RM3. I'd love to have a peek at the out-of-story meta-perspective that you have.
I started writing the solo coma years stories because I write Obi and didn't feel comfortable at the time trying to take on the Qui POV.
That makes a lot of sense.
Finally - thank you. It's been quite cool to get some heavy duty real critique.
You're quite welcome. Thank you for writing such an interesting saga and for responding.
no subject
Normally (well, in my experience) partner abuse in slash takes the form of the nasty unpopular character abusing the saintly popular character and geting his comeuppance in the end, either by being left or made to do the grovelling apology thing - the lurking message being (maybe) that partner abuse is bad and wrong and only nasty characters do it. But the Letters series is a complete reversal of this pattern - here the saintly popular character is the one doling out the psychological abuse. And there's nothing in the text (well, not that I noticed) that signifies this behaviour as wrong. Which leaves all sorts of room for the reader to make their own judgements about what's going on and what they think of it.
So, even though I don't actually *enjoy* reading Letters, I do find it very thought-provoking. About what kind of messages or ideology are embedded in slash. About what it might look like if a 'soulbond' goes bad. That's a nifty one. I mean, usually soulbonds are presented as utopian, but Letters gives us a thoroughly dystopian version. I started wondering if there could be some sort of Stockholm Syndrome happening. The bond means that both partners are absolutely and completely trapped in the relationship, so if one of them assumes dominance (as Obi does in Letters) then the other is trapped in the hostage role and there's no way out. I always felt that the underlying reason why Qui stayed in the coma was because it was the only way out of a destructive relationship. Hmm, maybe one day I'll get around to posting my own Letters burble, since Kivrin has taken the plunge.
I was very interested by Lori's comment that Qui-Gon didn't develop as a character, because I actually felt that Qui-Gon did change markedly over the course of the series. He goes from being a strong, independent, fairly well-adjusted sort of dude, to being a total psychological basket-case. I kept thinking "for heaven's sake, somebody needs to work out how to break the bond, get Qui to a refuge for abused Jedi and get him some heavy duty therapy. And give Obi-Wan a really good chewing out."
Oh my. I've just thought of the most bizarre crossover (much too bizarre to admit to). Half my brain is gibbering and the other half is in lust-overload. I think I'd better lie down.
A couple more peanuts
No matter what, I don't think anybody left off reading in the Letters universe without a strong reaction of some kind.
That, I think, is a great talent in and of itself.
And to cut Obi-Wan a break in this one, Qui fan that I am, I don't find that to me, he's this really megalomaniac psycho-abuser partner. Annoying, yes, manipulative, certainly, occasionally in need of having a new ass reamed out, absolutely. In my opinion. After all, Obi does (yes, in spades) what a lot of us are guilty of in our close relationships - manipulation of partner to raise own comfort levels. The fact is, however, that Qui *allows* him to get away with what he does and Qui is 20+ years older, well-trained, strong of mind and not exactly a cringy piece of jello. I wanted to know WHY Qui allows it, and that didn't come forth, which is why a far less Obi-centered pair of eyes would've made a big difference.
N